AI for lawyers: build your AI implementation plan

[00:03] Kimberly Whaley: Thanks. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for joining us today.

[00:06] Kimberly Whaley: We have with us Ian Hull of Hull& Hull and his partner Susanna Popovic-Montag, who's a managing partner at Hull& Hull.

[00:15] Kimberly Whaley: Welcome. And then you have me and Brian Gilmartin, my partner.

[00:18] Kimberly Whaley: And so today we're going to be talking about AI, which these days is like the biggest buzzword around.

[00:25] Kimberly Whaley: We're going to talk about change management today.

[00:28] Kimberly Whaley: We're going to talk about confidentiality and privilege and professional responsibility, as well as some toolkits, where to start, making it stick, how to manage it internally in your firm, what it costs, and the road ahead for estate practitioners.

[00:46] Kimberly Whaley: With that said, Ian's going to fill us with lots of information today and guide us in our questions for this hour session.

[00:56] Kimberly Whaley: Over to you, Ian.

[00:58] Ian Hull, LSM: Thanks, Kim, and welcome everyone.

[01:00] Ian Hull, LSM: All right, so we are going to really bring a practical approach to the AI world that we're in.

[01:09] Ian Hull, LSM: To be perfectly frank, when we were preparing for this 8 months ago, it was a different world, and I say that just to illustrate the rapid change in terms of both the process and the tools.

[01:23] Ian Hull, LSM: But The first thing is, and we use this term in our office as sort of a descriptor of AI, and that is we call it riding the bullet train.

[01:35] Ian Hull, LSM: And Suzanna, maybe you can just tell us a little bit about what that thinking is.

[01:41] Suzana Popovic-Montag: Sure, Ian. One of our colleagues, Doug Higgins, actually coined that phrase for us.

[01:45] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And really it's a metaphor about the fact that, you know, if you're going to board a train at 50 kilometers an hour, Maybe not so impossible.

[01:55] Suzana Popovic-Montag: But once it reaches 300 kilometers an hour, trying to jump onto that train is next to impossible.

[02:01] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And so the whole hope is that we all become early adopters of AI so that we can grow with it, learn with it, and then be able to manage it and use it to the best of our capabilities.

[02:14] Suzana Popovic-Montag: If we don't, you know, start soon and continue on that path, it's going to be almost impossible to catch up.

[02:21] Ian Hull, LSM: So, Kim, what is— give us some illustration of that, the pace of capability of AI in the last 5 years.

[02:30] Kimberly Whaley: Right. I think you blink and then there's something new.

[02:34] Kimberly Whaley: So it is difficult for sure to stay on top of the fast pace of development.

[02:41] Kimberly Whaley: But as Suzanna says, if you got your foot in the door, then it's much easier to maintain.

[02:47] Kimberly Whaley: And in terms of looking at what sort of systems are best suited to your practice or your firm to individualize it, I think it's important to, to actually take a step back and go more slowly.

[03:02] Kimberly Whaley: Yes, you want to be technically savvy, but I think you need to make sure that you're implementing the right tools that you're going to need for the objectives of your firm.

[03:15] Ian Hull, LSM: All right, so let's turn to that precisely, and that is we, all of us, continue to lead our firms in the AI revolution, so to speak, but we describe it as change management and not AI management, and I think that's the key.

[03:35] Ian Hull, LSM: We're all professionals, we're busy, we've created our own systems, even Young lawyers have created their own systems before the sort of embracing of AI tools, and change management is crucial.

[03:49] Ian Hull, LSM: Brian, why do lawyers typically want to— what are you seeing in your firm in terms of resistance to change and some of the steps that you're taking to get some actual tangible buy-in?

[04:04] Bryan Gilmartin: It's funny, right? I always say the technology is not the hard part.

[04:09] Bryan Gilmartin: There's so much technology out there and it's great.

[04:11] Bryan Gilmartin: The hard part is getting people to adapt and ultimately change the way they work.

[04:16] Bryan Gilmartin: And old habits are hard to break.

[04:18] Bryan Gilmartin: But, you know, a lot of the resistance is not necessarily irrational.

[04:25] Bryan Gilmartin: You know, people have obvious concerns about confidentiality, reliability, learning time, billing, professional skill, responsibility for errors.

[04:34] Bryan Gilmartin: And, you know, look, watching the news each and every day, we're hearing about some other blunder in the AI world, and it's just because it's a growing, it's a growing thing.

[04:43] Bryan Gilmartin: And so there's growing pains, and, and that's how it goes.

[04:46] Bryan Gilmartin: But, you know, in terms of, you know, inspiring the change, like, it's, in my view, it's really a top-down sort of thing.

[04:56] Bryan Gilmartin: It's, you know, Kim and I have to embrace it and, and share it with everybody, and ultimately lead them through it.

[05:04] Bryan Gilmartin: And, you know, resistance is natural and you just kind of gotta feel your way through it together.

[05:12] Ian Hull, LSM: Yeah, I think you really nail it when you're talking about leadership sets the tone and the buy-in really does have to come from the top.

[05:21] Ian Hull, LSM: And we're really pressing our partners at the partnership level to be engaging in it.

[05:28] Ian Hull, LSM: We will talk about some of the tools a bit later, but Then mercifully, the tools are getting easier to use, and even dinosaurs in the firm are able to use them.

[05:38] Ian Hull, LSM: Suzanna, what are some of the tangible steps that you're taking to increase buy-in in terms of the lawyers and the staff?

[05:49] Suzana Popovic-Montag: Well, as you know, Ian, like, our firm has really jumped on the AI bandwagon, and so we have definitely invested a lot of resources and time and finances in order to keep us on top of this.

[06:04] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And so we recognize that you sort of have to meet people where they are.

[06:09] Suzana Popovic-Montag: They are going to be the early adopters. There's going to be a group of them who are all over AI.

[06:14] Suzana Popovic-Montag: There's going to be those who just will put their toe in the water and then pull it out really quickly because they're not comfortable with it.

[06:20] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And then there's those who are really, really good at it.

[06:23] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And so meeting people where they are and then helping them move sort of to that next stage is really what we're So we recognize that there are new tools and that they are constantly changing.

[06:36] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And so the importance that we've found with this kind of environment is that the training is very, very important.

[06:43] Suzana Popovic-Montag: So you can have the nicest, shiniest AI tool, but if you're not using it at least to half of its capabilities, let alone its maximum, then it's not really a good return on investment.

[06:54] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And so we've really honed in on the training, on the reinforcement, on making sure that people recognize that this is just the way we practice law.

[07:03] Suzana Popovic-Montag: It's an adjunct to the way that we do stuff, and it's there to assist us.

[07:08] Suzana Popovic-Montag: So in our firm, we have little stickies on our computers that say, how can AI help me do this better?

[07:15] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And so we really try to shift that mindset by making people realize that this is what we have to do, this is what we have to adopt, and helping them with that transition.

[07:25] Suzana Popovic-Montag: Because as lawyers, of course, we are resistant to change.

[07:29] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And so it can sometimes be an uphill battle, but Even over the course of a year and a half, we've seen tremendous growth in that area, and we're very excited about it.

[07:39] Ian Hull, LSM: We'll talk about—

[07:41] Kimberly Whaley: sorry, just on Suzanna's comment about it being a great tool of assistance.

[07:46] Kimberly Whaley: Long ago and far away, I was a construction litigator.

[07:49] Kimberly Whaley: And when I first started, I spent nearly one full year in a documents room where I had to go through documents for little tidbits of information.

[07:59] Kimberly Whaley: And do trial bundling a whole year. That doesn't exist anymore.

[08:04] Kimberly Whaley: When you have repetitive tasks like that, it's— AI is a great assist.

[08:10] Kimberly Whaley: It's something that takes the more mundane parts of our practice away from us so that we have more time to spend on the fun parts, the analytical parts, the strategy.

[08:24] Kimberly Whaley: And so that is kind of the benefit in jumping on that bandwagon is sort of skipping forward through some of the grind.

[08:35] Ian Hull, LSM: For sure.

[08:36] Ian Hull, LSM: And, uh, and really, we are going to be able to be better time use of our, our advisor skills.

[08:43] Ian Hull, LSM: Um, all right, so just in terms of some deliverables in the change management sphere that we've adopted, we do a— every Monday morning we have a half-hour session where we're working through an aspect of the tools or tool that we're working with.

[09:00] Ian Hull, LSM: That's a Zoom session that is recorded, and we'll talk about some of those tools in a minute.

[09:06] Ian Hull, LSM: But that's then followed up by— we have now automated a test that we're asking each of the lawyers and staff to do by the end of the week on that particular section of the session.

[09:21] Ian Hull, LSM: So we're really, you know, we're teaching and we also have a team available to go see.

[09:29] Ian Hull, LSM: So it's not like you're sort of floating around, you can go talk to someone, but then we ask people to sort of do it.

[09:34] Ian Hull, LSM: And it's an easy test, it just identifies whether or not you've had good control over it.

[09:39] Ian Hull, LSM: So it seems to me embracing the change at the leadership level, being a practical leader is crucial.

[09:45] Ian Hull, LSM: Communicating transparency and investing in those future skills to empower people to shape the future.

[09:53] Ian Hull, LSM: And the last part of it is really shifting from operational to strategic use of AI, looking at prioritizing certain things like, Kim, you were talking about a whole day and the whole year in the room full of boxes, you know, looking for tasks.

[10:12] Ian Hull, LSM: And what we do is we've started to say, okay, look, just send in, and we have a tool that we use, but on Slack, but just send in a note where a friction point in your day, you're hitting a friction point, you're thinking, geez, I'd really like to be able to automate this kind of task.

[10:27] Ian Hull, LSM: And so we then develop through, and so we'll talk about how we do this, but we develop tools that are able to, for example, put together an affidavit, pull the documents, link the documents, and we've created a tool that'll do that actual step in and of itself.

[10:43] Ian Hull, LSM: So those are the kinds of things where you're embracing the high-impact work To get things done.

[10:53] Ian Hull, LSM: All right, so keeping it, you know, sort of more— let's get even more granular with this.

[11:01] Ian Hull, LSM: Susanna, we've got guardrails that have to be put up.

[11:06] Ian Hull, LSM: Can you talk a little bit about what, just generally, what guardrails you have to concern yourself with?

[11:12] Ian Hull, LSM: But more importantly, what are you— what have you instituted in your firm, our firm, in terms of guardrails?

[11:21] Ian Hull, LSM: Because we all know that at the end of the day, lawyers are paid to check the work.

[11:27] Ian Hull, LSM: And that's why I have really no tolerance to this idea that AI is the fault.

[11:33] Ian Hull, LSM: It's the lawyer who is the fault.

[11:36] Ian Hull, LSM: And so what if— but that being said, what are some of the tangible guardrails that we've instituted at our firm to ensure that AI doesn't get out of control for us?

[11:49] Suzana Popovic-Montag: Well, I think the first and most important thing is that when you are looking at which tools to bring into and implement in your firm, you want to make sure that we are getting a closed system, one that where the data is going to be residing locally, it's going to be confidentially used and not available to breach any of our obligations as fiduciaries and as lawyers because We know that we are certainly governed by the rules of professional conduct in terms of what we need to do.

[12:20] Suzana Popovic-Montag: We've certainly got solicitor-client considerations throughout.

[12:24] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And we want to make sure that when we're creating these systems and buying these systems, that first of all, it's closed and that it's not one that's generically available because once you leak out any client information, I think that's what scares people the very most.

[12:40] Suzana Popovic-Montag: So, if you're investing in proper AI tools, that's the easiest starting point.

[12:46] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And then beyond that, you know, we want to make sure that everyone in the firm knows how and what is expected of them.

[12:53] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And so very early on, we did create a written policy on AI use because we recognized that if we didn't meet people where they are, then they would just go and use, you know, consumer-grade AIs in their free time.

[13:07] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And the big concern, of course, with anything leaking out into that is what made us you know, take a step back and really indicate to people what it is that the expectations are so they know what our authorized tool use is.

[13:21] Suzana Popovic-Montag: They know that, as you said, Ian, the buck stops with us in terms of verification when we use these tools.

[13:28] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And as part of our policy, we've also included a reference to a remediation clause in the sense that, yes, we recognize that sometimes there may be a mistake or something may have been done improperly, and we want to make sure that we're catching that and addressing it.

[13:44] Suzana Popovic-Montag: it as soon as possible.

[13:46] Ian Hull, LSM: So we've also put in our retainer agreements an acknowledgement that we will— we intend to transcribe our meetings and we intend to record them.

[13:58] Ian Hull, LSM: We sort of have that sort of technology discussion with clients at the outset.

[14:03] Ian Hull, LSM: Brian, what are some other considerations and guardrails that we want to think about in terms of just when we're setting up our AI systems?

[14:15] Bryan Gilmartin: Yeah, just to stick in the vein of the client, we've included that similar language and purposely been, you know, perhaps over-descriptive because, you know, you run the risk of clients, you know, using AI to their own devices.

[14:35] Bryan Gilmartin: And so without perhaps fully understanding, you know, the closed versus open system and all the time and effort we've put into this.

[14:41] Bryan Gilmartin: And so in terms of a guardrail of your practice, it's also making sure that the client understands, you know, the difference to a certain degree so that they're not, you know, putting a pile of privileged and confidential information into ChatGPT or some other open source AI model and causing a whole pile of problems.

[15:02] Bryan Gilmartin: And so part of, you know, we're not just educating us along this journey each and every day, but it's also making sure that the client's sufficiently aware As to the risks and whatnot in terms of navigating the ordinary course of the file.

[15:17] Ian Hull, LSM: Yeah, we went so far as, like, one of the things that a client might just put a reporting letter into ChatGPT, and what that of course has done is put that information into a public source.

[15:29] Ian Hull, LSM: And we remind them at the opening retainer agreement that we have it in there, that they shouldn't do that.

[15:36] Ian Hull, LSM: We're very sensitive to try to, as best we can, data residency is important.

[15:42] Ian Hull, LSM: Where is the data being saved? And that's— those are always considerations with the tools.

[15:48] Ian Hull, LSM: Providing the training and retention of the tools themselves is also an essential part of the guardrails because you want your lawyers to make sure they understand what they're using and not using.

[16:01] Ian Hull, LSM: And then, of course, limits their professional responsibility.

[16:05] Ian Hull, LSM: As I say, I think hallucinations is just lazy lawyering, and it's, it's really not what we should be concerning ourselves with.

[16:15] Ian Hull, LSM: Hallucinations means that we haven't done our homework and, and haven't, you know, fact-checked the, the work product.

[16:24] Ian Hull, LSM: All right, Susanna, did, did you have any other guardrails considerations that we were considering?

[16:33] Suzana Popovic-Montag: I think really just making sure that everyone is on the same page in terms of what the expectations are and what is allowed and what isn't allowed.

[16:42] Suzana Popovic-Montag: Because we have actually launched AI firm-wide.

[16:45] Suzana Popovic-Montag: So we have not only our lawyers using it, but our administrative staff, our bookkeepers, our accountants.

[16:51] Suzana Popovic-Montag: Everyone is sort of using it in any way that could assist them with that mundane task that we face every day.

[16:59] Suzana Popovic-Montag: From time to time.

[17:00] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And so, you know, having that dialogue, letting people know that it's okay to ask questions and to keep that training going because, you know, it's the only way we can, as I said earlier, maximize the use of these tools.

[17:15] Ian Hull, LSM: All right, go ahead.

[17:18] Kimberly Whaley: Yeah, just to add, Ian, just in terms of accountability and the lawyers actually using the system, Just in checking your work, you always have to think, how was the decision reached, or how was the outcome provided?

[17:37] Kimberly Whaley: And it has to be defensible.

[17:39] Kimberly Whaley: So it has to be source-based, and a lot of the platforms that we use are good at this, identifying the source.

[17:50] Kimberly Whaley: But also, it has to be reproducible.

[17:52] Kimberly Whaley: And I, I think if You, if you look at your work in that vein, accountability becomes much easier to, to carry out.

[18:07] Ian Hull, LSM: Absolutely. All right.

[18:09] Ian Hull, LSM: Well, let's talk about the practical sort of block of this seminar, and that is, you know, what specific tools are we using and how are we using them?

[18:18] Ian Hull, LSM: And our best starting point, I would think, is really the consultation and intake.

[18:24] Ian Hull, LSM: But before we do that, the approach that our firm has taken is as follows.

[18:31] Ian Hull, LSM: There are paid tools that you can buy, and we're going to talk about Co-Counsel and Lexis AI and Copilot and Claude.

[18:39] Ian Hull, LSM: But they are all fixed— not Claude, but typically fixed-price tools.

[18:47] Ian Hull, LSM: And one of the generational changes with AI in the last 6 months is that The use of tokens now is becoming more and more a factor in what you're going to do from what tools you're going to use.

[19:00] Ian Hull, LSM: You can buy a Copilot license or a Co-Counsel license.

[19:05] Ian Hull, LSM: There's going to be a fixed fee and there is no restrictions on use.

[19:12] Ian Hull, LSM: Up to probably 4 months ago, that was the model where you were buying a tool that you weren't worried about tokens, you were buying the subscription for the year, And you could literally go crazy with the tool.

[19:25] Ian Hull, LSM: Well, now with Claude and Claude Legal coming out, there's other connectors that exist now.

[19:32] Ian Hull, LSM: Basically, the AI tools are available.

[19:35] Ian Hull, LSM: So we have 5 or 6 software programs you might run in your office.

[19:39] Ian Hull, LSM: You might run Copilot, you might run a DMS system, you might run Slack, you might run your inbox and your outbox at Microsoft.

[19:49] Ian Hull, LSM: Those are the kinds of sort of core software programs, and then of course an accounting program.

[19:54] Ian Hull, LSM: Well, what we're trying to do is we're saying we look at it this way: every client is a pool of data, and that data has to be obviously protected in an enterprise, an enterprise tool, so that it's not going into the internet and having the sorts of governance things we talked about.

[20:12] Ian Hull, LSM: But that client pool of data Starting from that first meeting is our source of information for the specific client, and then you build on it with it all of the other tools that you're using.

[20:26] Ian Hull, LSM: So for example, we have a knowledge management system, we have precedent systems that we've used, that the connector— that is, we use Claude— that connector on top can draw on that specific client data.

[20:39] Ian Hull, LSM: So how do we start to build that data?

[20:42] Ian Hull, LSM: We start at our firm, we start to build it at the starting point, and that is At that first meeting, we use a particular program called Fellow, but there's also Otter AI.

[20:51] Ian Hull, LSM: There's other recording devices out there, and it's a transcription and recording device for a bunch of reasons.

[20:57] Ian Hull, LSM: Obviously, it's the best note-taker you can establish now. It's very refined and very accurate.

[21:05] Ian Hull, LSM: Again, we're starting to build the client data, and that data will be precise by virtue of the recording of it.

[21:13] Ian Hull, LSM: Then what we've used is Fellow. We just use Fellow because it is actually saved in Canada.

[21:20] Ian Hull, LSM: Some of these tools, you can specifically find out where the data is being saved.

[21:24] Ian Hull, LSM: We like that and so we use it.

[21:26] Ian Hull, LSM: We're opening our meetings having entered into the consultation with that building.

[21:33] Ian Hull, LSM: That building block alone can be a really important part of later when you're drawing up affidavits and sourcing the information.

[21:41] Ian Hull, LSM: Your connector can go into the Fellow channel and it will draw out— when you've asked it the right questions, it will draw out facts that you've developed really right from the beginning.

[21:52] Ian Hull, LSM: So the starting point is looking at what tools you're going to start to build your database with.

[21:58] Ian Hull, LSM: And we'll talk a little bit about expenses and so on on that.

[22:02] Ian Hull, LSM: But that's an easy illustration of the first process that we begin.

[22:07] Ian Hull, LSM: Susanna, what other elements of the toolkit are we using to build in our client data pool.

[22:17] Suzana Popovic-Montag: Actually, even if we step back even before that first consultation, many times clients will send along background information or other documents they'd like us to review in advance.

[22:30] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And what we find at the very start, at the intake stage, is that we have the opportunity to save these documents and to use our tools in order to create a summary of what this consultation is going to be about.

[22:46] Suzana Popovic-Montag: It's going to summarize the client's documents.

[22:48] Suzana Popovic-Montag: It's going to perhaps even create chronologies for us based on the limited information we have so that we've sifted through this information and go into our consultations a lot more knowledgeable, or at least more quickly do we become more knowledgeable about what the actual matter's going to be about by virtue of having the assistance of our tools.

[23:08] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And so, you know, I think that's where we see a lot of instant kind of gratification from having adopted AI because, you know, that drudgery of reviewing the documents and summarizing the documents and, you know, figuring out the terms of the will and things like that is done so much more efficiently by virtue of the systems that are available.

[23:29] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And so that, I think, is a great starting point for, you know, walking in and asking the more pointed questions and having the more directed dialogue because I find that our clients themselves are coming in with higher expectations of us as a result of, you know, as Kim said, you know, the most talked about word right now is AI.

[23:51] Ian Hull, LSM: And so it really isn't anything more than creating, looking for— like, most of us have a DMS, a document management system, in place.

[24:00] Ian Hull, LSM: And so one of the questions in the channel— and please feel free to ask questions, and I'm monitoring that— one of the questions is, is this data safe?

[24:09] Ian Hull, LSM: Well, of course, If it's saved in the cloud and you're using Azure, one of the core cloud services, it's as safe as anything.

[24:20] Ian Hull, LSM: I mean, we're all in that business of— there's always, I guess, a threat that the cloud will be hacked, but we're all practicing, most of us are practicing with cloud-based technology, which has been proven to be safe.

[24:34] Ian Hull, LSM: So that's the one element of it.

[24:37] Ian Hull, LSM: Kim and Brian, when you are Engaging clients early on, how are you introducing the kinds of tools that you're going to be using, the AI tools you're going to be using?

[24:51] Kimberly Whaley: Well, I don't think we've had— we don't— there isn't a lot of discussion with the client about it.

[24:59] Kimberly Whaley: I find that clients have not on the whole been asking much about it, but in our retainer agreement, we of course go into great detail on the, the systems that we'll be using and the things that we'll be using it for.

[25:16] Kimberly Whaley: And because of that, we'll occasionally have questions about, is it open? Is it closed?

[25:23] Kimberly Whaley: How is it secure? And the reality is, yeah, we're using cloud-based systems.

[25:32] Kimberly Whaley: Cybersecurity is always a concern, and my own view is it's largely out of our control.

[25:38] Kimberly Whaley: If their system is going to be hacked, is ours going to become vulnerable? For sure.

[25:43] Kimberly Whaley: But that's always been the case, right? That's nothing new.

[25:50] Kimberly Whaley: And so we have to manage that professionally within our governing rules of professional conduct and communication to the clients, etc.

[26:02] Kimberly Whaley: One of the things that clients, I think, benefit from is Susanna said, well, we're already going to our first meeting ahead of the game because we have the chronology, we have the documents distilled, etc., that were sent in.

[26:18] Kimberly Whaley: Clients, for the most part, will offload a lot of information to you but not really understand the importance or context Of it all.

[26:29] Kimberly Whaley: And so that sort of getting that, that probably saves you a half an hour of consult time just getting that chronology before you start.

[26:40] Kimberly Whaley: And I think clients benefit from that because they get more out of their— I don't know how long your consultations are, Ian and Susanna, but we do a flat fee hour and a half consult.

[26:52] Kimberly Whaley: And because Historically, it kind of took more than an hour, but maybe not 2.

[27:00] Kimberly Whaley: But now I find we're usually done in an hour, and it is because of those efficiencies.

[27:07] Kimberly Whaley: We get to the nut of it quicker, and the clients aren't able to get you to the nut of it on the whole.

[27:13] Kimberly Whaley: So we're seeing efficiencies from that. We're seeing Then follow on. We also use Fellow.

[27:25] Kimberly Whaley: We have excellent notes.

[27:27] Kimberly Whaley: And then if we are retained after that consult, it's so easy to go back and watch like the live recording of it, or look at the transcript of it, or look at the summary and quickly recall, oh yeah, that's what that was about.

[27:42] Kimberly Whaley: And here's what we said to them.

[27:44] Kimberly Whaley: So again, the next efficiency is then getting started on the file, you, you, you've, you know, you've probably done that in 10 minutes where it might have taken you 2 hours to go back and look at all of the documents, etc., etc.

[27:59] Kimberly Whaley: So every step of the way from the beginning consult stage through, you're saving time.

[28:08] Kimberly Whaley: You're applying efficiencies that, that help.

[28:13] Kimberly Whaley: And that is also true for if you have different team members.

[28:17] Kimberly Whaley: We always operate in teams in our office.

[28:19] Kimberly Whaley: If we have a meeting, there's usually a consult, there's usually 3 lawyers on it.

[28:24] Kimberly Whaley: Not that it's necessary, but we do it for the purposes of consistency, to introduce the team to the client so that the client knows that there's always somebody at the end of a phone or an email if someone's on holiday, and we carry that through.

[28:42] Kimberly Whaley: But if it— if we didn't have those 3 people on the meeting, it would be easier for somebody else in the office to pick up that file and run with it by going back to look at the recording or reading the transcript or the summary.

[28:56] Kimberly Whaley: So again, you have efficiencies, especially if you have lawyer turnover, for example.

[29:03] Kimberly Whaley: So all these tools properly applied really do, they don't replace a lawyer, but they do definitely allow you to use your time better.

[29:26] Ian Hull, LSM: So true.

[29:27] Ian Hull, LSM: And, you know, some of the, and I'm just gonna work through some of the questions now, but Those efficiencies, like for example, a recording tool like Fellow or Otter AI will give you a summary of the meeting and it will also give you— you can say, listen, give me some bullet points, draft a short reporting letter from the meeting.

[29:47] Ian Hull, LSM: We have a hard and fast rule that every time there's contact with the client, we all like to say follow up, everything is in writing and all of the sorts of good practice things.

[29:56] Ian Hull, LSM: Well, it's a lot easier to do it now and there's really no excuse.

[30:00] Ian Hull, LSM: from even a quick call with the client to say, hey, this is what we did and this is where we're going.

[30:05] Ian Hull, LSM: So those efficiencies are excellent.

[30:08] Ian Hull, LSM: Just to go through a couple of questions and then we'll come back into the discussion here.

[30:12] Ian Hull, LSM: One of the things that when I mentioned the connectors, so remember all of what we're talking about are enterprise-level tools.

[30:22] Ian Hull, LSM: So a non-enterprise level is ChatGPT, open ChatGPT, and we encourage our lawyers to to have an account because we want them to be practicing and getting used to the cadence of using AI, but not for work.

[30:40] Ian Hull, LSM: Just if you're traveling and say I'm at the corner of 5th and 49th Street, where's the closest Starbucks?

[30:46] Ian Hull, LSM: That stuff, just to become a part of the cadence.

[30:51] Ian Hull, LSM: But the connector even, we're using Claude, but there's lots of connector tools out there.

[30:56] Ian Hull, LSM: Claude connecting down to our various software programs is also an enterprise program.

[31:01] Ian Hull, LSM: So everything is a closed loop of the client data.

[31:05] Ian Hull, LSM: So Claude really just gives you— helps me visualize it.

[31:10] Ian Hull, LSM: Claude sets up things in what are called projects. So each client is a project.

[31:15] Ian Hull, LSM: So you are describing— you are working from that ball of data from that client That will grow and create it as you move on.

[31:25] Ian Hull, LSM: And as Kim says, if there's lawyer turnover or something like that, there really is no excuse.

[31:30] Ian Hull, LSM: Used to be you had to look at the whole file and read through it, and I used to have to flip through paper even.

[31:35] Ian Hull, LSM: Those days are gone. But that ties to one of the questions that was being asked about is privilege.

[31:44] Ian Hull, LSM: And does privilege play a role in this?

[31:48] Ian Hull, LSM: And what impact at all would that— does AI have any impact on the question of privilege?

[31:55] Ian Hull, LSM: Maybe Susanna, do you want to touch that one?

[31:57] Suzana Popovic-Montag: Oh, absolutely. It does have a role. It has a very important role.

[32:01] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And that's why we talk about these closed systems because, you know, we have to maintain the sanctity of solicitor-client privilege and confidentiality.

[32:10] Suzana Popovic-Montag: We don't want this information to be outside of, you know, the 4 walls of our offices.

[32:15] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And so by having closed systems, and we're talking about every system, like our DMS system is closed, our monday.com system is closed, our Slack system is closed, Fellow AI is closed, and Claude, that connector who draws from all of those different databases, is closed.

[32:34] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And that gives us the best comfort we can get that the information is going to stay within you know, the 4 corners of our office.

[32:42] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And that is really important.

[32:44] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And it's certainly the law societies across Canada are coming up with requirements for and expectations for every province in terms of maintaining that confidentiality, that privilege.

[32:56] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And, you know, I think it's just so important that you really look into the right systems because yes, it is so easy to turn to the cheaper versions, the free versions, but that's where I think lawyers can get into trouble and that's where We really want to avoid that because, yes, shadow AI does exist.

[33:17] Suzana Popovic-Montag: If you don't give people the right tools, they'll use the other tools.

[33:20] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And that's where I think we really want to avoid that at all costs.

[33:26] Ian Hull, LSM: All right.

[33:27] Ian Hull, LSM: One of the things that was just in the chat here I want to just touch on is the idea that you've got a You're bringing efficiencies to your day, but we're in the business of billing for our time.

[33:46] Ian Hull, LSM: And and and how do we get around that struggle of you know what are we doing?

[33:53] Ian Hull, LSM: We're we're so we are we trying to work ourselves out of our our practice?

[33:57] Ian Hull, LSM: And and I think we'll let each of each you guys have your own views on this.

[34:01] Ian Hull, LSM: Let's talk about this for a moment now. But I'll just start the discussion by saying this.

[34:06] Ian Hull, LSM: So first of all, when AI started to be a buzz, everybody said radiologists were going to be wiped out.

[34:12] Ian Hull, LSM: Nobody's going to need radiologists.

[34:13] Ian Hull, LSM: Well, in fact, there's actually an undersupply of radiologists now because the tools are so good, the AI tools in medicine that you are getting, you need radiologists to use, to understand the data that's being thrown at them after that procedure's done.

[34:33] Ian Hull, LSM: So it's the same with lawyers. We are here to give advice. The minute we— so I have 2 answers.

[34:40] Ian Hull, LSM: One is the minute that we say that we are bringing efficiencies to the day and we're able to give advice and enjoy our day more, and that's probably a positive thing.

[34:50] Ian Hull, LSM: You might even be able to get to your kid's hockey game more often.

[34:53] Ian Hull, LSM: You may not have as much time tied up with the practice itself.

[34:57] Ian Hull, LSM: But where I flip it around is that It doesn't— well, 2 answers.

[35:02] Ian Hull, LSM: One is, bring in— you got more time to bring in more work, I guess, is one answer.

[35:06] Ian Hull, LSM: But the other is, is that in the marketplace, as lawyers, we cannot use our time the way we've been using it.

[35:14] Ian Hull, LSM: The rest of the world is expecting us to be using AI tools and bringing efficiencies.

[35:18] Ian Hull, LSM: So for us to turn around and say, well, we're going to drag this one out and continue to be a time-based model for inefficient steps, is only going to hurt you and your ability to continue to practice law and be retained by clients.

[35:32] Ian Hull, LSM: But what about— what do you guys have to say about this whole debate over time and management and billings and revenue and all the things that get affected by AI?

[35:43] Bryan Gilmartin: For now, I just see it as a means to be able to attend to the work faster.

[35:49] Bryan Gilmartin: You know, there's no excuse if these things are properly implemented for that, you know, letter to hang around for 2 weeks.

[35:57] Bryan Gilmartin: to finally get out the door because you've been so, you know, jammed up on other things.

[36:01] Bryan Gilmartin: Like, if you're able to streamline the process, streamline your environment, streamline your staff and your associates, and get them all on the same page, then it's the work just free flows.

[36:12] Bryan Gilmartin: And to your point, yes, perhaps your time's freed up to bring in more work, and that's always the hope.

[36:19] Bryan Gilmartin: But, you know, that strive for efficiency and just, you know, everybody's gotta accept the reality, as you said, Ian, that this is, this is the way it's going.

[36:29] Bryan Gilmartin: To, you know, kind of stick your head in the sand and say, no, I'm just gonna keep true.

[36:33] Bryan Gilmartin: It's putting you in a difficult spot to, you know, compete in the market. It just is what it is.

[36:40] Kimberly Whaley: I think given our practice area and the demographics, Brian, there's no shortage of work out there.

[36:47] Kimberly Whaley: So efficiencies are critical to being able to service your business, to grow your business, to manage your business.

[37:00] Kimberly Whaley: So net-net, it can only be a benefit. I see it.

[37:03] Bryan Gilmartin: Yep.

[37:04] Kimberly Whaley: And the other thing is, if the law societies say that the highest area of complaints in negligence or client complaints are lack of communication or improper communication, shall we say, It's, it's an all-encompassing solution because there's no excuse.

[37:23] Kimberly Whaley: You're prompted to communicate with the client. And, and that's efficient as well.

[37:30] Ian Hull, LSM: And so let's go, Susanna, go.

[37:33] Suzana Popovic-Montag: Sorry, and I was just gonna say, and I think I've certainly been reading and sort of watching what the reaction is to that.

[37:39] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And there is some talk that maybe our billing model may change.

[37:44] Suzana Popovic-Montag: Or not necessarily every file is going to change, but there may be moments in time where we get our systems so automated and so efficient and so effective that we can perhaps block bill in a way that we've never been able to do in the past.

[37:59] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And so with, you know, the way that we're learning how to use these systems better, with the comfort and the confidence that comes from them becoming better and better, that might be something that does change our billable hour.

[38:11] Suzana Popovic-Montag: But recognizing, of course, that we've got the flexibility that that may not be the case for every single file.

[38:16] Suzana Popovic-Montag: It may be a particular file, a particular kind of file.

[38:20] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And so I actually think that's kind of exciting because, you know, Kim, you mentioned at the outset your flat fee for a consult.

[38:27] Suzana Popovic-Montag: Like, it's been tested, it's been tried, it's been true, and it works.

[38:31] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And that may be what we're going to see more of in the future with AI.

[38:36] Kimberly Whaley: Yeah. And I don't think limited to an either/or situation.

[38:40] Kimberly Whaley: You could even do a block bill and time billing in and then set out the circumstances to allow for, you know, system interruptions, etc., etc.

[38:51] Kimberly Whaley: Yeah.

[38:53] Ian Hull, LSM: Yeah.

[38:53] Ian Hull, LSM: And it's always a big part of what we're trying to— we're talking in terms of how to practice with AI in a smaller firm environment.

[39:01] Ian Hull, LSM: I mean, this is not— the bigger firm environments have different tension and different models that they have to, but we're both categorized in a small firm size, and we have been sort of focusing on that in terms of that.

[39:15] Ian Hull, LSM: So let's talk a little bit about the tangible tools we're using.

[39:18] Ian Hull, LSM: Maybe we could start with you, Susannah, in terms of that and the costs.

[39:23] Ian Hull, LSM: One of the questions is, how do we— how can we deal with the costs of AI?

[39:27] Ian Hull, LSM: But what tools are we specifically using?

[39:31] Ian Hull, LSM: And drawing from it, from our connector, what tools are we using, Susanna?

[39:38] Suzana Popovic-Montag: Well, I think almost everyone probably has some kind of a document management system, and that really is the most important one of our systems, I would say, because that's where all of our documents are stored.

[39:48] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And we use iManage Cloud, again, a closed system that allows us to collate all of our files and have everyone be able to access them.

[39:59] Suzana Popovic-Montag: For precedents, we use ACL, which is an automated civil litigation program that allows us to generate court forms and documents.

[40:11] Suzana Popovic-Montag: We've mentioned Monday.com, which is sort of our project management software.

[40:17] Suzana Popovic-Montag: It allows us to have people— anyone can see the status of a file by Going into monday.com, they'll see, you know, what the next steps are, and they can get a real-time feel for where the file is really, really instantaneously.

[40:35] Suzana Popovic-Montag: Our internal kind of email communication system that we use is Slack, and we find that that is really one that everyone loves because it's so easy.

[40:47] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And we open a file in Slack, based on the client's name and the most important documents, the most important exchanges.

[40:56] Suzana Popovic-Montag: Everything is there and it's sort of memorialized so you can just quickly, you know, flip through it and figure out, okay, here's the next step.

[41:02] Suzana Popovic-Montag: Here's the call we had with the client. Here's the summary of that call.

[41:05] Suzana Popovic-Montag: It's all in sort of one place and it's internal and it allows for the exchange between lawyers internally as well to happen there with the clerk or whomever.

[41:14] Suzana Popovic-Montag: Clients aren't part of that.

[41:16] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And so that's where it's a little different from the, you know, the email side of the our practices as well.

[41:22] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And we've mentioned now a couple times Fellow AI, which is that recording transcription and amazing program that sort of summarizes and can do so much with those summaries and those things that have been recorded and memorialized that we can then drop into or have our connector pull from for the purposes of any search that we have on a file.

[41:48] Ian Hull, LSM: All right, and Kim and Brian, in terms of costing the AI, at this point we're all sort of getting our sea legs on how we can, you know, get client management with that one.

[42:02] Ian Hull, LSM: But what do you— what is your approach on costing of AI, and what are you doing with clients in terms of, are you charging them extra for AI?

[42:11] Ian Hull, LSM: What are you doing?

[42:14] Kimberly Whaley: Right.

[42:16] Kimberly Whaley: So obviously it's a pivoting scenario because we're always looking at new systems and new implementation.

[42:24] Kimberly Whaley: And some of the systems are, as you say, user-based, how many users for licenses, etc.

[42:31] Kimberly Whaley: And I'm not so familiar with the tokens because I haven't gotten to that stage yet.

[42:39] Kimberly Whaley: But Certainly Doug and you are, I'm sure, going to get me on track soon on the tokens part of this.

[42:49] Kimberly Whaley: For a small firm, I'm not going to lie, like technology and these systems, it's expensive.

[42:58] Kimberly Whaley: But in the end, if you're going to be using it and using it properly, I think it does benefit the client.

[43:04] Kimberly Whaley: It lends to a blended fee kind of scenario, which we try to implement in any event.

[43:11] Kimberly Whaley: We are not so far charging back the costs of AI to our clients, but for— we do have an increased opening fee and closing fee that we hope to capture some of those miscellaneous costs that the client benefits from because of the efficiencies.

[43:36] Kimberly Whaley: And we have that built into our retainer. It doesn't mean that that's not the model go forward.

[43:43] Kimberly Whaley: I, and I think there is a, there's some, an AI fee that we implement, a technology fee that we implement.

[43:53] Kimberly Whaley: I think it's done quarterly.

[43:55] Kimberly Whaley: I don't remember the amount, but I mean, that's kind of how we've tried to offset some of the cost.

[44:01] Bryan Gilmartin: I think too, you know, you can project a lot of the costing of it in, in your own internal systems and how you use it.

[44:08] Bryan Gilmartin: I mean, if you're going to adopt a firm-wide policy of here's the steps.

[44:12] Bryan Gilmartin: So say from file opening, you know, here's the steps you're going to have to take within the week of being retained, and here's how you're going to do it using these platforms and these.

[44:21] Bryan Gilmartin: You can, you can kind of see based on what's billed in carrying out those steps, you know, what's brought in and how does that relate to the cost you've incurred on the platforms themselves.

[44:34] Bryan Gilmartin: So like, I've— we've been playing around with that idea and saying, okay, look, These are— look, they're expensive, there's no question about it.

[44:40] Bryan Gilmartin: But how, how do we structure what we do in such a way that sees, you know, those costs being offset or at least somewhat addressed by way of our own internal systems and how we approach a file?

[44:55] Ian Hull, LSM: Well, that's, that's good.

[44:56] Ian Hull, LSM: I mean, we, we have a $500 opening technology fee and we, we put in our retainer agreement it's going to be renewed every year.

[45:03] Ian Hull, LSM: So if you're still a client after a year, it automatically is charged on that bill at that point in time, all tracked by AI.

[45:12] Ian Hull, LSM: So the other part of it is there's a time saving.

[45:16] Ian Hull, LSM: And at some point, you know, you do create co-counsel. We use co-counsel.

[45:21] Ian Hull, LSM: And one of the sort of selling points to that was, is that if we were— I think we were spending about $400 a month per user.

[45:33] Ian Hull, LSM: And all we looked at it, we said, look, we've got to save an hour of time.

[45:37] Ian Hull, LSM: And if I can save an hour of time, that's picking up the— so that's your blended model for sure.

[45:45] Ian Hull, LSM: I just want to answer a couple of the other questions here in terms of the security in the cloud.

[45:49] Ian Hull, LSM: We're kind of circling around that.

[45:51] Ian Hull, LSM: I think we just sort of, like Kim said, it's kind of that isn't really what we're going to be able to solve today.

[45:57] Ian Hull, LSM: That's a That's a sort of a problem for someone with a higher pay scale than me.

[46:01] Ian Hull, LSM: It does seem remarkable to me that lawyers are that concerned about AI security.

[46:07] Ian Hull, LSM: We've been using email on an unencrypted basis for about 25 years, and it is remarkably unsecure.

[46:15] Ian Hull, LSM: So, and it seems to be that the standard is, as long as you're paying for a private iCloud service, you're you're hitting the standard of care, so to speak.

[46:26] Ian Hull, LSM: In terms of the closed loop, what I mean is this.

[46:29] Ian Hull, LSM: Remember, when you're in an enterprise tool, it is going into the internet, so to speak, but it's anonymizing the searches and so on, and it's also using your client data.

[46:41] Ian Hull, LSM: I can say to my Claude connector, listen, I want to draw up an affidavit of documents here.

[46:47] Ian Hull, LSM: Please make sure that it's put in the right format so My litigation programming tool will put it in the right format.

[46:54] Ian Hull, LSM: My source of the documents will be drawn from the right sources and so on.

[47:00] Ian Hull, LSM: But I can also do deep research, and that's what obviously the— we use deep research for Thomson Reuters deep research tool, and that's obviously going into a database that is within a closed system, but within their closed system.

[47:16] Ian Hull, LSM: The tokens point is just that the model is changing, and if you're going to go to using connectors and those kinds of tools, you just have to create connectors that aren't going to use $30,000 on a weekend of tokens.

[47:33] Ian Hull, LSM: You can really definitely get into those crazy numbers if you're going to go into some frolic without governors around it.

[47:40] Ian Hull, LSM: Good connectors will will allow you to price a search for literally cents, many, you know, quarter cents of a dollar, a quarter of a cent for part of it.

[47:52] Ian Hull, LSM: So the token management is just, that's its own sort of area of practice that we have to make sure that we're mindful of because the costing on this can be enormous and it can get out of control if you haven't got some sort of parameters around your token use, if you're using a connector model like that.

[48:14] Ian Hull, LSM: But if you're going to buy a fixed price model like Co-Counsel, you're going to know your pricing.

[48:20] Ian Hull, LSM: You're going to know that that's $400 a month usage, user, or whatever the number is.

[48:25] Ian Hull, LSM: I forget exactly for that. So those are some of the pricing models that we've sort of played with.

[48:30] Ian Hull, LSM: Susanna, do you have anything else on the costing?

[48:34] Suzana Popovic-Montag: No, I think just when you're entering into these arrangements, one of the things that we certainly learned is that you want to be careful that you're not locking into a long-term contract necessarily if you can avoid it, because AI is moving at a bullet train speed.

[48:51] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And so whereas something was relevant and very useful to us even 3 months ago, it's somewhat more obsolete now.

[48:59] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And if you're stuck with a contract for over a year, you know, it's a very, um, not such a great investment, um, it turns out at the end.

[49:07] Ian Hull, LSM: Um, okay, so, uh, one of the things, uh, is coming up in the questions as well is how do we create all this content?

[49:14] Ian Hull, LSM: We've got a retainer agreement, we've got acknowledgments.

[49:17] Ian Hull, LSM: We've really— we went so far with our acknowledgments, we've asked people to wet ink with an old-fashioned wet ink sign that they will not use their own, uh, you know, open ChatGPT models when dealing with clients, just to emphasize the moment.

[49:32] Ian Hull, LSM: But we just created it through AI. So it's these tools are all there to develop it.

[49:39] Ian Hull, LSM: One of the habits, and this is what we're going to talk about the next making it stick and what it costs.

[49:43] Ian Hull, LSM: The habits we need to create. Susanna's idea of putting a sticky on literally on the screen.

[49:50] Ian Hull, LSM: How can AI help me with this problem?

[49:52] Ian Hull, LSM: Remind yourself every day, every time you do a task, how can AI help me?

[49:57] Ian Hull, LSM: And the old days of careful prompting are gone.

[50:02] Ian Hull, LSM: If you're using the right tools, I know for sure with Claude, the prompting is eliminated as a problem.

[50:09] Ian Hull, LSM: You can use Copilot and you can say, hey Copilot, I've got this issue, what's the best prompt?

[50:16] Ian Hull, LSM: And it'll draft your own, it'll draft the prompt for you.

[50:18] Ian Hull, LSM: For you, a comprehensive prompt for you, so that those kinds of early-day training and problems are gone now.

[50:28] Ian Hull, LSM: But the neat thing is, is that certainly with our firm, is that we started from zero.

[50:32] Ian Hull, LSM: We had to teach our lawyers how to properly prompt, and they had to sort of think about the prompt.

[50:38] Ian Hull, LSM: And now they have a deeper understanding of a prompt.

[50:42] Ian Hull, LSM: And now when you can just say, do the prompt, You can say, hey, I used to have to do that.

[50:46] Ian Hull, LSM: So that's where AI is really building on it from that standpoint.

[50:51] Ian Hull, LSM: But Susanna, let's just talk a little bit about, as we're winding up, the idea of— we've talked about the sort of the costing of it, but what are some other things that we're doing to make it stick in terms of our lawyers?

[51:09] Suzana Popovic-Montag: Well, I think We've mentioned this at the outset, really having that continuous training and implementing and testing is the only way to make it sort of sticky.

[51:21] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And so, you know, as you mentioned, we have the regular training session, we have the follow-ups, we have the quick little quiz.

[51:31] Suzana Popovic-Montag: Having that sort of that repetition is what's going to build these. skills.

[51:37] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And recognizing also that, you know, we want to make sure that by training, we're seeing who needs more help perhaps, and helping those individuals who wouldn't necessarily, you know, rise to the top in a group of people.

[51:50] Suzana Popovic-Montag: We're able to customize the training for them as well.

[51:54] Suzana Popovic-Montag: Because the reality is like, it's the best way to do it, right? It's to customize that teaching.

[52:00] Ian Hull, LSM: And so, and so just to help, what we're doing with that is We are tracking use and we are telling— the transparency with lawyers is so important and stuff.

[52:11] Ian Hull, LSM: We're tracking use. It's because it's easy to track with AI.

[52:15] Ian Hull, LSM: And what that's allowing us to do is find out where weaknesses are and where they're not.

[52:21] Ian Hull, LSM: And so we get an early adopter.

[52:23] Ian Hull, LSM: We can sometimes have them as the, you know, sort of the, you know, one of the sessions we might have them come on and say, hey, listen, I'm trying this now and This is a really cool thing I'm doing day to day or something like that to sort of enhance their position.

[52:35] Ian Hull, LSM: But there's nothing wrong with, I mean, I think nothing wrong with part of the training is saying to our lawyers, look, we're tracking because we wanna know where adoption is and where it isn't.

[52:45] Ian Hull, LSM: And also we wanna know if parts of our software infrastructure are really redundant.

[52:52] Ian Hull, LSM: And redundancies are so important.

[52:55] Ian Hull, LSM: We've already probably got, in the course of a year, we've probably now as a consequence of tracking, we're going to get rid of 2 redundant pieces of software within the next year, but we can't right away because of course we're in a year contract.

[53:07] Ian Hull, LSM: So we'll have to move through that.

[53:09] Ian Hull, LSM: But those redundancies were also— that tracking was really helpful and again helps your costing.

[53:18] Kimberly Whaley: Ian?

[53:18] Ian Hull, LSM: Yes.

[53:19] Kimberly Whaley: Can I interrupt?

[53:21] Kimberly Whaley: I think it might be helpful, not that this is meant to be a plug for the company that you and Suzanna set up, but it might be helpful to explain what you have developed and how it might be able to help the lawyers out there watching today, because we for sure found the services that your company offers really useful in our practice and in helping to train our lawyers.

[53:46] Ian Hull, LSM: Sure. Well, look, there's 2 parts to any AI adoption plan.

[53:50] Ian Hull, LSM: One is teaching and making sure that you've taught the team engagement, and 2 is the tool.

[54:03] Ian Hull, LSM: What we're very big on is creating a situation where we have opened up an opportunity to learn a tool, and we are big fans of a connector tool because part of the problem with AI is every single software program now has AI elements in it.

[54:23] Ian Hull, LSM: And so you have to sort of maybe learn a different methodology with each one.

[54:28] Ian Hull, LSM: We use Saluno now for our billing, and we use monday.com.

[54:34] Ian Hull, LSM: Well, monday.com has got a layer of AI within it in and of itself to short— to bring efficiencies to it using that tool.

[54:44] Ian Hull, LSM: Well, what we did was we just sat back and said, we need to create a connector with all of these so that the lawyer doesn't really have to be an expert on any one piece of the software.

[54:53] Ian Hull, LSM: They need to be an expert on the inquiry, the nature of the analysis, and the kinds of questions to ask the software tools to bring out the answers.

[55:02] Ian Hull, LSM: And so we bring in 2 elements of it.

[55:04] Ian Hull, LSM: We bring in the, the teaching and the use of a connect, a proper connector that is, that is both efficient for the lawyer.

[55:13] Ian Hull, LSM: It's— and it's also cost-effective, and that's what we're trying to bring to the market as well.

[55:17] Ian Hull, LSM: But we've, we've developed that over the last year, and it's, it's something that we're, we're going to market with as well.

[55:23] Ian Hull, LSM: But, uh, we're really excited about that too.

[55:25] Ian Hull, LSM: But the key really comes back to it— if you're going to spend the money and it's not being used, there's nothing worse than a photocopier that's sitting in the corner and you're not using it.

[55:36] Ian Hull, LSM: And that's really what AI can be.

[55:38] Ian Hull, LSM: And if it's not being used, how can we fix it and how can we get rid of programs that aren't being used on a day-to-day basis?

[55:50] Ian Hull, LSM: All right. So thank you. All right. Now we're just about— we got just a couple more minutes left.

[55:57] Ian Hull, LSM: I'm just checking the questions, but I wanted to thank everyone.

[56:04] Ian Hull, LSM: The questions have been really thoughtful and, oh yeah, okay, let's, this is the one question I have written down too, the use of the all-in tools.

[56:13] Ian Hull, LSM: So Susanna, there are tools out there like Clio's, for example, where you're gonna get a firm-wide resource for the use.

[56:24] Ian Hull, LSM: And it is a, look, Clio is an amazing tool and one that, If, if you're going to get into it, it has just so many user-friendly aspects of it, but it brings a wide berth of operational assistance to you.

[56:43] Ian Hull, LSM: Susanna, what are your— what are some of the concerns about getting into some of those tools, and what are some of the benefits?

[56:53] Suzana Popovic-Montag: So I think really We want to make sure that we're understanding the capabilities of these tools and that they're being used properly.

[57:05] Suzana Popovic-Montag: You know, there are so many horror stories out there where things are not being done properly, and that we don't want to become that statistic.

[57:14] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And so the, you know, really paying attention to what it is, how others are using it, learning from others' mistakes, I think would be sort of best guidance I'd give for someone who's stepping into something but not very familiar with it at the moment.

[57:29] Ian Hull, LSM: Yeah, and the thing about the all-inclusive tools is once you're in, you're in.

[57:34] Ian Hull, LSM: So making sure that it's the right tool for you and your firm and doing your due diligence at the outset.

[57:41] Ian Hull, LSM: And part of what we do also provide is a whole bunch of resourcing and guidance on the right tools to go into.

[57:49] Ian Hull, LSM: For the right firm. It's not for everyone. And so, I mean, as I say, Clio is a great example.

[57:56] Ian Hull, LSM: It's an all-inclusive product, but once you're in, you really have to embrace all of your operations within Clio.

[58:03] Ian Hull, LSM: So you wanna make sure when you're going in, it's the right move for you.

[58:07] Ian Hull, LSM: All right, well, look, we're just about out of time and I know we wanna close off with, I think Mallory is gonna— jump in and close off the session.

[58:18] Ian Hull, LSM: So thanks so much to everyone, and thanks to all your questions. Really helpful and good dialogue.

[58:25] Kimberly Whaley: Absolutely.

[58:26] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And we just want to thank you all, Kimberly, Brian, Ian, and Susanna, for another really insightful webinar.

[58:32] Suzana Popovic-Montag: And thank you so much as well to our audience for joining us today. We'll see you at the next one.

[58:38] Kimberly Whaley: Thanks, everyone.

[58:39] Suzana Popovic-Montag: Thank you.